Italy and Germany were allies during world war two. The word fascism was coined by Mussolini, an Italian. So making a joke referencing something based on history. And right now their stance is if not similar its rhyming.
Sure, but to say thay Italy [as a whole] has always been like that discounts the efforts of a lot people, including former governments.
Sorry if I’m nitpicking. I just want to stay conscious of the fact that the forces opposing fascism never went away, and that as history repeats itself, the good parts can also be repeated.
You’re not nitpicking. It’s like saying USA is all Nazis. A country is more than its current government. Unfortunately neither Italy nor the USA have a particularly well functioning democracy.
As bampop said in a different branch of this convo, a country is more than its government.
To declare an entire country nazis discounts the existence and in some cases the life’s work of a lot of good people. I can appreciate a joke, but right now I really want to focus on the fact that anti-fascism is also everywhere, and that as history repeats itself, the good parts can also be repeated. If not, then all is lost.
My flatmate is german. He’s a marxist academic writing a thesis comparing the far right parties of Spain, Germany and Finland. The AfD is getting more and more votes, but the vast majority hate their guts.
However it is well documented that the vast vast vast majority of Germans supported the Nazis of their own free will. The “good german” and “clean wehrmacht” concepts are myths brought about in the aftermath of the war due to political expediency and, though they were adequately discredited by the 1980s, it still stubbornly holds on because the inhumanity is still so unbelievable.
Those Germans who did stand up to the Nazis were minute in numbers, and did so in an atmosphere of extreme hostility from the general public. After all, the Gestapo was a very small agency, and the population was self-policing.
Oh definitely. I just don’t like it when conclusions are drawn that as such, all germans are nazi sympathisers due to their blood (something intrinsic that can’t be changed), rather than just most of them and due to the societal circumstances that actually caused the widespread fervor. The former stance reeks of essentialism.
My brother in Christ its a joke, is that Bourgeois Decadence?
I have a hard time having sympathy for the Germans, with dumb jokes like this. Yes, I do feel for the Germans that lost their lives standing up to the Nazi government tho and have immense respect for them and anyone who stands up against fascism but I don’t respect them cause they are German I respect them for standing up against fascism.
It’s hard to have that kind of sympathy for Germans when germany doesn’t even recognize Palestine (the genocide of this century) and the Europeans have made Palestinians pay more for the Jewish Holocaust than the Germans ever did.
I make the jokes cause to me the underlying factors that led to that kind of apathy for an “outsider” community has not changed in Europe and the west.
The same factors still exist though they like to pretend to be all civilized and past that. I call bullshit.
And cool i guess maybe i should talk to your flatmate more. He might understand my underlying anger and frustration better than you.
Are you joking now? Because you seem to be contradicting yourself. You say that you feel for the germans who stood up, but then you say that you have a hard time having that sympathy for germans (including the ones in the previous sentence?).
The reason I took issue with this is that I’m scared. Fascism is capitalism in decay. A systemic symptom of a flawed and unsustainable system eating itself. That leaves only people and their capacity for good to have hope in. That hope is in short supply. Things will continue to get a lot worse before they get better again.
Not there I wasnt. I have sympathy for all the people who saw what was happening and fought to stop it. They don’t need to be German for that.
Exactly I’m scared too and all I can do is make dumb jokes. So when I see things like this it’s easier to be “haha of course history wants to rhyme like that” than be like “oh fuck here we go again why can’t we ever learn”. It gives me no joy to say that and know we are going that route again.
Italy and Germany were allies during world war two. The word fascism was coined by Mussolini, an Italian. So making a joke referencing something based on history. And right now their stance is if not similar its rhyming.
Would you make the same joke about all germans always, based on their history and the recent resurgence of the far-right?
I’ll remind you that it was italian partisans who killed Mussolini and italians were the ones to beat the body up and hung it up on that square.
I’d say at least 80% of all jokes told about Germany and Germans in the last 70 years were in some way related to Nazis or Nazi stereotypes.
Can we go back to jokes about Mafia? I’d rather prefer that.
Brother. The current prime minister of Italy thinks Mussolini was a good politician. Italy is run by neo-fascists.
Sure, but to say thay Italy [as a whole] has always been like that discounts the efforts of a lot people, including former governments.
Sorry if I’m nitpicking. I just want to stay conscious of the fact that the forces opposing fascism never went away, and that as history repeats itself, the good parts can also be repeated.
You’re not nitpicking. It’s like saying USA is all Nazis. A country is more than its current government. Unfortunately neither Italy nor the USA have a particularly well functioning democracy.
And 2 generations later moussies grand-daughter came to power.
In germany the AfD, the Neonazi party, is rising in popularity.
So in conclusion, yes, yes I will. Also germany didn’t pay shit for what they did to their Jewish population. So yes… I will make jokes.
As bampop said in a different branch of this convo, a country is more than its government. To declare an entire country nazis discounts the existence and in some cases the life’s work of a lot of good people. I can appreciate a joke, but right now I really want to focus on the fact that anti-fascism is also everywhere, and that as history repeats itself, the good parts can also be repeated. If not, then all is lost.
My flatmate is german. He’s a marxist academic writing a thesis comparing the far right parties of Spain, Germany and Finland. The AfD is getting more and more votes, but the vast majority hate their guts.
However it is well documented that the vast vast vast majority of Germans supported the Nazis of their own free will. The “good german” and “clean wehrmacht” concepts are myths brought about in the aftermath of the war due to political expediency and, though they were adequately discredited by the 1980s, it still stubbornly holds on because the inhumanity is still so unbelievable.
Those Germans who did stand up to the Nazis were minute in numbers, and did so in an atmosphere of extreme hostility from the general public. After all, the Gestapo was a very small agency, and the population was self-policing.
Oh definitely. I just don’t like it when conclusions are drawn that as such, all germans are nazi sympathisers due to their blood (something intrinsic that can’t be changed), rather than just most of them and due to the societal circumstances that actually caused the widespread fervor. The former stance reeks of essentialism.
My brother in Christ its a joke, is that Bourgeois Decadence?
I have a hard time having sympathy for the Germans, with dumb jokes like this. Yes, I do feel for the Germans that lost their lives standing up to the Nazi government tho and have immense respect for them and anyone who stands up against fascism but I don’t respect them cause they are German I respect them for standing up against fascism. It’s hard to have that kind of sympathy for Germans when germany doesn’t even recognize Palestine (the genocide of this century) and the Europeans have made Palestinians pay more for the Jewish Holocaust than the Germans ever did.
I make the jokes cause to me the underlying factors that led to that kind of apathy for an “outsider” community has not changed in Europe and the west. The same factors still exist though they like to pretend to be all civilized and past that. I call bullshit.
And cool i guess maybe i should talk to your flatmate more. He might understand my underlying anger and frustration better than you.
Are you joking now? Because you seem to be contradicting yourself. You say that you feel for the germans who stood up, but then you say that you have a hard time having that sympathy for germans (including the ones in the previous sentence?).
The reason I took issue with this is that I’m scared. Fascism is capitalism in decay. A systemic symptom of a flawed and unsustainable system eating itself. That leaves only people and their capacity for good to have hope in. That hope is in short supply. Things will continue to get a lot worse before they get better again.
Not there I wasnt. I have sympathy for all the people who saw what was happening and fought to stop it. They don’t need to be German for that.
Exactly I’m scared too and all I can do is make dumb jokes. So when I see things like this it’s easier to be “haha of course history wants to rhyme like that” than be like “oh fuck here we go again why can’t we ever learn”. It gives me no joy to say that and know we are going that route again.